From:
MilindapaƱha Milinda's Questions
VicÄravagga Examination Chapter
6. VedagÅ«paƱha Question on the Experiencer
RÄjÄ ÄhaāThe king asked:
ābhante nÄgasena, vedagÅ« upalabbhatÄ«āti? āVenerable NÄgasena, is an experiencer to be found?ā
āKo panesa, mahÄrÄja, vedagÅ« nÄmÄāti? āBut what then is this thing called an experiencer?ā
āYo, bhante, abbhantare jÄ«vo cakkhunÄ rÅ«paį¹ passati, sotena saddaį¹ suį¹Äti, ghÄnena gandhaį¹ ghÄyati, jivhÄya rasaį¹ sÄyati, kÄyena phoį¹į¹habbaį¹ phusati, manasÄ dhammaį¹ vijÄnÄti, yathÄ mayaį¹ idha pÄsÄde nisinnÄ yena yena vÄtapÄnena iccheyyÄma passituį¹, tena tena vÄtapÄnena passeyyÄma, puratthimenapi vÄtapÄnena passeyyÄma, pacchimenapi vÄtapÄnena passeyyÄma, uttarenapi vÄtapÄnena passeyyÄma, dakkhiį¹enapi vÄtapÄnena passeyyÄma. āThat soul within, venerable sir, that sees a form with the eye, hears a sound with the ear, smells an odour with the nose, tastes a flavour with the tongue, touches a tangible with the body, and knows a thought with the mind, just as we, seated here in the palace, might look out of whichever window we wish to look out of ā whether that be the east, the west, the north, or the south window.
Evameva kho, bhante, ayaį¹ abbhantare jÄ«vo yena yena dvÄrena icchati passituį¹, tena tena dvÄrena passatÄ«āti. Even so, venerable sir, this soul within looks out of whatever door it wishes to look out of.ā
Thero ÄhaāThe elder said:
āpaƱcadvÄraį¹, mahÄrÄja, bhaį¹issÄmi, taį¹ suį¹ohi, sÄdhukaį¹ manasikarohi, yadi abbhantare jÄ«vo cakkhunÄ rÅ«paį¹ passati, yathÄ mayaį¹ idha pÄsÄde nisinnÄ yena yena vÄtapÄnena iccheyyÄma passituį¹, tena tena vÄtapÄnena rÅ«paį¹yeva passeyyÄma, puratthimenapi vÄtapÄnena rÅ«paį¹yeva passeyyÄma, pacchimenapi vÄtapÄnena rÅ«paį¹yeva passeyyÄma, uttarenapi vÄtapÄnena rÅ«paį¹yeva passeyyÄma, dakkhiį¹enapi vÄtapÄnena rÅ«paį¹yeva passeyyÄma, evametena abbhantare jÄ«vena sotenapi rÅ«paį¹yeva passitabbaį¹, ghÄnenapi rÅ«paį¹yeva passitabbaį¹, jivhÄyapi rÅ«paį¹yeva passitabbaį¹, kÄyenapi rÅ«paį¹yeva passitabbaį¹, manasÄpi rÅ«paį¹yeva passitabbaį¹; āI will talk to you, your majesty, about the five doors. Listen to this and pay careful attention. If the soul within sees form with the eye, just as we, sitting here in the palace can see material form through whatever window we wish to look through, whether through the east, the west, the north, or the south window, could a material form be seen by this soul within by means of the ear, or by the nose, or by the tongue, or by the body, or by the mind?
cakkhunÄpi saddoyeva sotabbo, ghÄnenapi saddoyeva sotabbo, jivhÄyapi saddoyeva sotabbo, kÄyenapi saddoyeva sotabbo, manasÄpi saddoyeva sotabbo; And could a sound be heard by means of the eye, or by the nose, or by the tongue, or by the body, or by the mind?
cakkhunÄpi gandhoyeva ghÄyitabbo, sotenapi gandhoyeva ghÄyitabbo, jivhÄyapi gandhoyeva ghÄyitabbo, kÄyenapi gandhoyeva ghÄyitabbo, manasÄpi gandhoyeva ghÄyitabbo; And could an odour be smelled by means of the eye, or by the ear, or by the tongue, or by the body, or by the mind?
cakkhunÄpi rasoyeva sÄyitabbo, sotenapi rasoyeva sÄyitabbo, ghÄnenapi rasoyeva sÄyitabbo, kÄyenapi rasoyeva sÄyitabbo, manasÄpi rasoyeva sÄyitabbo; And could a flavour be tasted by means of the eye, or by the ear, or by the nose, or by the body, or by the mind?
cakkhunÄpi phoį¹į¹habbaį¹yeva phusitabbaį¹, sotenapi phoį¹į¹habbaį¹ yeva phusitabbaį¹, ghÄnenapi phoį¹į¹habbaį¹yeva phusitabbaį¹, jivhÄyapi phoį¹į¹habbaį¹ yeva phusitabbaį¹, manasÄpi phoį¹į¹habbaį¹yeva phusitabbaį¹; And could a tangible be felt by means of the eye, or by the ear, or by the nose, or by the tongue, or by the mind?
cakkhunÄpi dhammaį¹ yeva vijÄnitabbaį¹, sotenapi dhammaį¹yeva vijÄnitabbaį¹, ghÄnenapi dhammaį¹ yeva vijÄnitabbaį¹, jivhÄyapi dhammaį¹yeva vijÄnitabbaį¹, kÄyenapi dhammaį¹yeva vijÄnitabbanāti? And could a thought be known by means of the eye, or by the ear, or by the nose, or by the tongue, or by the body?
āNa hi, bhanteāti. āCertainly not, venerable sir.ā
āNa kho te, mahÄrÄja, yujjati purimena vÄ pacchimaį¹, pacchimena vÄ purimaį¹, yathÄ vÄ pana, mahÄrÄja, mayaį¹ idha pÄsÄde nisinnÄ imesu jÄlavÄtapÄnesu ugghÄį¹itesu mahantena ÄkÄsena bahimukhÄ suį¹į¹hutaraį¹ rÅ«paį¹ passÄma, evametena abbhantare jÄ«venÄpi cakkhudvÄresu ugghÄį¹itesu mahantena ÄkÄsena suį¹į¹hutaraį¹ rÅ«paį¹ passitabbaį¹, sotesu ugghÄį¹itesu ā¦ ghÄne ugghÄį¹ite ā¦ jivhÄya ugghÄį¹itÄya ā¦ kÄye ugghÄį¹ite mahantena ÄkÄsena suį¹į¹hutaraį¹ saddo sotabbo, gandho ghÄyitabbo, raso sÄyitabbo, phoį¹į¹habbo phusitabboāti? āThe latter is not fitted to the former, your majesty, nor the former to the latter. Just as, your majesty, when these grilled windows are removed, we seated here in the palace, looking outward, see form more clearly through great space, would the soul within see form more clearly through great space when the doors of the eyes have been removed? ... when the ears have been removed? ... when the nose has been removed? ... when the tongue has been removed? And would it feel a tangible more clearly when the body has been removed?ā
āNa hi, bhanteāti. āCertainly not, venerable sir.ā
āNa kho te, mahÄrÄja, yujjati purimena vÄ pacchimaį¹, pacchimena vÄ purimaį¹, yathÄ vÄ pana, mahÄrÄja, ayaį¹ dinno nikkhamitvÄ bahidvÄrakoį¹į¹hake tiį¹į¹heyya, jÄnÄsi tvaį¹, mahÄrÄja, āayaį¹ dinno nikkhamitvÄ bahidvÄrakoį¹į¹hake į¹hitoāāti? āThe latter is not fitted to the former, your majesty, nor the former to the latter. Just as if, your majesty, this Dinna were to depart and stand in the entrance way outside the door, would you know āthis Dinna has departed and is standing in the entrance way outside the doorā?ā
āÄma, bhante, jÄnÄmÄ«āti. āYes, venerable sir, I would know.ā
āYathÄ vÄ pana, mahÄrÄja, ayaį¹ dinno anto pavisitvÄ tava purato tiį¹į¹heyya, jÄnÄsi tvaį¹, mahÄrÄja, āayaį¹ dinno anto pavisitvÄ mama purato į¹hitoāāti? And then, just as if, your majesty, this Dinna were to come back inside and stand in front of you, would you know āthis Dinna has come back inside and is standing in front of meā?ā
āÄma, bhante, jÄnÄmÄ«āti. āYes, venerable sir, I would know.ā
āEvameva kho, mahÄrÄja, abbhantare so jÄ«vo jivhÄya rase nikkhitte jÄneyya ambilattaį¹ vÄ lavaį¹attaį¹ vÄ tittakattaį¹ vÄ kaį¹ukattaį¹ vÄ kasÄyattaį¹ vÄ madhurattaį¹ vÄāti? āIn the same way, your majesty, when a flavour is placed on the tongue, would the soul within know whether itās essence were sour, salty, bitter, pungent, astringent, or sweet?ā
āÄma, bhante, jÄneyyÄāti. āYes, venerable sir, it would know.ā
āTe rase anto paviį¹į¹he jÄneyya ambilattaį¹ vÄ lavaį¹attaį¹ vÄ tittakattaį¹ vÄ kaį¹ukattaį¹ vÄ kasÄyattaį¹ vÄ madhurattaį¹ vÄāti. āAnd when it has gone from your tongue into your inside would it know whether itās essence were sour, salty, bitter, pungent, astringent, or sweet?ā
āNa hi, bhanteāti. āCertainly not, venerable sir.ā
āNa kho te, mahÄrÄja, yujjati purimena vÄ pacchimaį¹, pacchimena vÄ purimaį¹, yathÄ, mahÄrÄja, kocideva puriso madhughaį¹asataį¹ ÄharÄpetvÄ madhudoį¹iį¹ pÅ«rÄpetvÄ purisassa mukhaį¹ pidahitvÄ madhudoį¹iyÄ pakkhipeyya, jÄneyya, mahÄrÄja, so puriso madhuį¹ sampannaį¹ vÄ na sampannaį¹ vÄāti? āThe latter is not fitted to the former, your majesty, nor the former to the latter. Just as if, your majesty, some person or other might fetch a hundred pots of honey, fill a large trough with this honey, cover the mouth of a man, and throw him into the trough of honey, would that man know whether the honey were sweet or not?ā
āNa hi, bhanteāti. āCertainly not, venerable sir.ā
āKena kÄraį¹enÄāti? āFor what reason?ā
āNa hi tassa, bhante, mukhe madhu paviį¹į¹hanāti. āBecause, venerable sir, the honey has not entered his mouth.ā
āNa kho te, mahÄrÄja, yujjati purimena vÄ pacchimaį¹, pacchimena vÄ purimanāti. āThe latter is not fitted to the former, your majesty, nor the former to the latter.
āNÄhaį¹ paį¹ibalo tayÄ vÄdinÄ saddhiį¹ sallapituį¹; āI am not competent to converse with you, a debater of the doctrine.
sÄdhu, bhante, atthaį¹ jappehÄ«āti. It would be good, venerable sir, if you told me the meaning.ā
Thero abhidhammasaį¹yuttÄya kathÄya rÄjÄnaį¹ milindaį¹ saƱƱÄpesiāThe elder instructed King Milinda with a talk connected with Abhidhamma.
āidha, mahÄrÄja, cakkhuƱca paį¹icca rÅ«pe ca uppajjati cakkhuviƱƱÄį¹aį¹, taį¹sahajÄtÄ phasso vedanÄ saĆ±Ć±Ä cetanÄ ekaggatÄ jÄ«vitindriyaį¹ manasikÄroti evamete dhammÄ paccayato jÄyanti, na hettha vedagÅ« upalabbhati, sotaƱca paį¹icca sadde ca ā¦peā¦ āHere, your majesty, dependent on the eye and form, eye consciousness arises, and from the coming together of that there is contact, feeling, perception, volition, one-pointedness, the life faculty, and attention. Thus, these things are produced from conditions, and no experiencer is found here. Dependent on the ear and sounds ā¦
manaƱca paį¹icca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviƱƱÄį¹aį¹, taį¹sahajÄtÄ phasso vedanÄ saĆ±Ć±Ä cetanÄ ekaggatÄ jÄ«vitindriyaį¹ manasikÄroti evamete dhammÄ paccayato jÄyanti, na hettha vedagÅ« upalabbhatÄ«āti. dependent on the mind and thoughts, mind consciousness arises, and from the coming together of that there is contact, feeling, perception, volition, one-pointedness, the life faculty, and attention. Thus, these things are produced from conditions, and no experiencer is found here.ā
āKallosi, bhante nÄgasenÄāti. āYou are clever, venerable NÄgasena.ā
VedagÅ«paƱho chaį¹į¹ho. Question on the Experiencer sixth